Thinking Allowed, entrevista a John C. Lilly

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with Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.

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With me is Dr. John C.
Lilly, a noted pioneer

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of mystical states, of
states of consciousness

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and also interspecies communication.

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Dr. Lilly is a former researcher

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with the National
Institutes of Health

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and the Maryland Psychiatric
 Research Center.

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He is the author
of some five books

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on human-dolphin communication

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including Lilly on Dolphins,

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Man and The Dolphin

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Today we are going to explore

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the province of the mind.

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Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove.

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Conversations On the Leading
Edge of Knowledge and Discovery

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Thinking Allowed

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The Mind of the Dolphin,

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Communication with Dolphins

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He has written many books on
deep inner exploration,

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including The Deep Self

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The Center of the Cyclone, 
The Dyadic Cyclone

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and The Scientist, and he is
 particularly known for

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Programming and Metaprogramming 
the Human Biocomputer.

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In fact he introduced that 
term, the biocomputer

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 into our language.

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Welcome, John.

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Thank you.

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It's a real pleasure to be with you.

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I think it would be good to start

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 with your famous maxim
 about what is true

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in the province of the mind.

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Could you begin by repeating that?

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In the province of the mind
what one believes to be true,

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either is true or becomes
true within certain limits.

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These limits are to be 
found experimentally

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and experientially.

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When so found

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these limits

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turn out to be further beliefs

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to be transcended.

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In the province of the 
mind there are no limits.

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However, in the province of the body

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there are definite limits not
to be transcended.

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You've probably devoted your whole life

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and certainly many decades recently

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to pushing to see what 
really were the limits

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by going into new realities

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taking on the belief systems 
of those realities

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and then coming back

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to your basic working reality
and challenging those beliefs

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integrating those beliefs with your own.

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In your writings you've explored

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almost every state of
consciousness I could imagine

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the various mystical
 levels of Satori

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communication with extraterrestrials, communication

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with other species...

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You've established probably

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 a more significant mapping
 of inner space

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than almost any other modern

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 person, and I think we all
 owe a great debt to you

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for that.

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But don't get stuck with those.
 I've abandoned all of them.

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It's impossible, because there
 are infinities within the mind.

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I think that's the beauty
of your work

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is that you keep moving
further and further out.

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further and further out.

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In The Center of the
Cyclone you described a state

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you had a whole system, virtually a 
quantitative system for mapping

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states of consciousness, and you 
talked about one that

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I found most fascinating,

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which you call +3, Mega Satori.

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In that state you
describe going so

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far out of your body, 
even out of the

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physical universe, to the point

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of being at the level of
essence, in which

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the physical universe is created.

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Right.

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That almost seemed to me,

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in reading that book, like an
 ultimate state of consciousness,

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but I know you wrote about it
some fifteen years ago.

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How does it look to you now?

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Well, there's one state beyond +3.
That's +1, but you're

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not allowed to remember
that once you go into it.

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It's union with God. 
That's the true yoga.

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and so you're nonhuman

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so there's no way you can recount
what happened.

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You have no way of saying it,
because it's beyond language.

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Well, all those states
are beyond language.

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Language is a very poor
instrument to express it.

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In some of your other writings
you've described language

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as being a thin film that
separates us from reality.

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Much as we try to use 
language to describe

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what we mean

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it really puts barriers up.

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Well, there's one use of
language that's valid.

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That's the injunctive use

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telling you how to do things.

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The descriptive
one's very poor

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and William James said that

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the other realities are separated 
from this one by the filmiest of screens.

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 I found that this
screen is language

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so you have to abandon it when 
you're going to these other realities.

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In addition to +1 and +3, 
you've mapped out +6.

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That's a state of consciousness, as I

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recall, in which the mind can 
travel to any point

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 in physical or nonphysical space.

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Right. But you maintain
your individuality.

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That must be a basic mode of the
psychic explorer. I gather from

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reading much of your work that you
spent a great deal of time in +6.

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Right, and in +12.

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Plus 12 is the blissful idiot.

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You're in your body;
you're right here and now

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 but everything is happy.

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There's gold dust
particles in the air

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 and everything is good.

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You can feel energy moving in
 and out of the different

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psychic centers of the body.

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And if a bird calls, you hear
it echoing through the galaxy.

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But

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that's not much use

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unless you canfind another 
bliss beingin the same space.

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Many of the mystical teachings
warn against getting stuck

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 in some of these realities.

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Right. I haven't been in any
of them since that time.

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You also refer, in your
mapping of states,

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 to +48,

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which is sort of a
perfectly neutral state.

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Right.

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Plus 24 is the

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professionalstate of any
discipline that you're involved in

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where you're lost
in the discipline.

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Forty-eight is where you're

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Then there are the minus states,

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but I

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don't go into those.

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communicating with
everybody else.

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But at one point you wrote about
the importance of going

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into the minus states and
remaining perfectly aware

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being conscious in those negative
states naturally, not trying

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to block out the negativity. You
described that, as I recall as

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 burning karma.

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Yes.

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In The Center of the Cyclone
there's a chapter called

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 "A Guided Tour of Hell"

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which is

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which is

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minus

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six.

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That was awful.

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So I never had to go back to that.

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 And I was never frightened again.

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 I was totally terrified
 in that one.

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I suppose it's what the
Christian mystics

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 sometimes refer to as the 
dark night of the soul.

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Well, it was the dark night 
of my soul.

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Perhaps this is a necessary part
of everybody's journey

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is to go through the 
epitome of terror.

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Right.

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For instance

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there's an Iranian psychiatrist

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an American psychiatrist

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that put

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a hundred patients

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 in a

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mental hospital in Iran

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 through what they 
feared most

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on Ketamine

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and they all left the hospital.

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Now, I tried the same thing

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 after I read that.

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hat evening I took 150
milligrams of Ketamine

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and suddenly

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the Earth Coincidence Control Office

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removed my penis

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and handed it to me.

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I screamed in terror.

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My wife Toni came running in
from the bedroom,

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and she said,
"It's still attached"

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So I shouted

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at the ceiling

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Who's in charge up there? 
A bunch of crazy kids?"

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The answer came back

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"Well,

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you had an unconscious fear,

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so we put you through it, just the
way Iranian psychiatrist  did."

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In the realm of the mind

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the province of the mind, 
we can face all our fears.

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Well, you may not be able to
live with it, but you should try it.

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I often find in dreams that the 
things that would destroy the body

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in the realm of the mind, don't.

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That's right.

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The survival programs,
 as I found out

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earlier from doing
neurophysiology

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are built into the brain.

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The rewarding systems

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euphoric systems

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and the sexual systems

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and the painful, punishing

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anger systems are 
all built in.

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And then you realize that
the cerebral cortex has

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many, many paths to these systems
and from these systems

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so you don't have to go
through these states.

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Let's focus a little bit on some 
of the terms you mentioned

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a moment ago. You mentioned
Ketamine. What is Ketamine?

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Ketamine is the most commonly
used anesthetic for

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very young children 
and old people.

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In the literature there are
emergence symptoms that  described

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emergence being
coming out of the anesthetic.

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Some doctors don't like
those emergence symptoms

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so they won't use it.

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Others know what they are, so
they just hold the hand of the patient

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and help him come out.

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It was the most commonly used
anesthetic in Vietnam.

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Some places won't use it at all

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but are frightened of it.

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Basically, what a
strong of Ketamine

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will do is make you

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unaware of your body.

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Yes, it can.

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 I don't like it anymore.

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But it creates

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a state where one
can enter into

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 inner realities

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free from the attachments
of the body.

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ECCO told me to stop using it

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and get back here and
 learn how to be human.

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In your book The Scientist
 you describe

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going through a period of
very intensive explorations with

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Vitamin K

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as you described it at that point

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to the extent that people
thought you were

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and it's not clear to me whether you
were or not addicted to the substance.

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Well

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when one is doing 
research on a substance

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one takes it so frequently 
that outside observers

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can say you're addicted

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 but that's a very bad 
definition of addiction.

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I think in many ways

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whether you were or weren't, one has
to admire your willingness

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to always push the
frontiers of our knowledge further

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and it's clear that that was your 
motivation for the work that you did.

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earlier from doing neurophysiology

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Any good research is
obsessive and compulsive.

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You also mentioned the term ECCO.

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What is ECCO?

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E-C-C-O.

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 In Italian it means, "This is it."

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But it means to me the
Earth Coincidence Control Office

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which is

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which is one of God's

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field offices

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ECCO runs our lives

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though we won't admit it.

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If you're an ECCO agent

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you can be very, very careful

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to use your best intelligence
in ECCO's service

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and

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you realize there are no discoveries, 
there are only revelations.

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That was a come-down 
for me as a scientist.

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I've found in my own 
work in the media and

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parapsychology, that I'm 
much guided

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by coincidences.

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And I guess it's looking
to coincidences as

264
00:12:02,427 --> 00:12:06,826
signs along the way that
defines this relationship

265
00:12:06,883 --> 00:12:09,085
with what
you've defined as ECCO.

266
00:12:09,145 --> 00:12:13,430
Right, the Earth Coincidence Control. 
It's coincidence control that they do

267
00:12:13,723 --> 00:12:16,817
and they say, "We control the
long-term coincidences

268
00:12:17,094 --> 00:12:19,148
you control the short-term ones.

269
00:12:19,529 --> 00:12:21,514
And when you find out how we do

270
00:12:21,614 --> 00:12:22,976
the long-term ones

271
00:12:23,091 --> 00:12:26,343
you no longer have to remain on
earth; you don't have to return there."

272
00:12:26,532 --> 00:12:30,547
It seems to me as if your 
concept of ECCO is a way of

273
00:12:30,588 --> 00:12:32,574
modeling a mechanism behind

274
00:12:32,628 --> 00:12:35,042
what Jung has
defined as synchronocity.

275
00:12:35,122 --> 00:12:35,837
That's right.

276
00:12:35,954 --> 00:12:38,442
Jung defined synchronicity only

277
00:12:38,677 --> 00:12:39,797
 in a good fashion

278
00:12:40,151 --> 00:12:41,979
 in his introduction
to the I Ching

279
00:12:42,074 --> 00:12:43,738
 and he uses the term

280
00:12:47,152 --> 00:12:48,658
coincidences.

281
00:12:49,525 --> 00:12:51,267
Meaningful coincidences.

282
00:12:52,487 --> 00:12:55,107
But of course the coincidences 
are in your own construction

283
00:12:55,185 --> 00:12:56,819
your own language construction

284
00:12:57,121 --> 00:12:58,114
of the events.

285
00:12:59,143 --> 00:13:01,050
So that's all a fake too.

286
00:13:02,365 --> 00:13:03,850
As I say at the beginning
of my workshops

287
00:13:04,146 --> 00:13:05,615
"Everything I say here is

288
00:13:06,374 --> 00:13:06,999
a lie

289
00:13:08,046 --> 00:13:09,078
bullshit, in other words

290
00:13:09,317 --> 00:13:10,054
because

291
00:13:10,124 --> 00:13:11,600
anything that you put in words

292
00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:12,822
is not experience

293
00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:14,010
is not the experiment.

294
00:13:15,589 --> 00:13:17,097
 It's a representation

295
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:18,461
a misrepresentation."

296
00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:21,232
And here we are misrepresenting 
to each other

297
00:13:21,272 --> 00:13:23,200
 in order that we can
 learn from these lies.

298
00:13:23,256 --> 00:13:26,441
Right. Now if you use
 language injunctively

299
00:13:26,481 --> 00:13:29,286
as a set of directions, then it's not

300
00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:32,264
as bad as it is otherwise.

301
00:13:33,505 --> 00:13:36,856
So in other words, for example, 
when you talk about ECCO

302
00:13:36,935 --> 00:13:38,013
when you talk about

303
00:13:38,223 --> 00:13:42,496
perhaps going into an inner reality
using sensory isolation tank

304
00:13:42,586 --> 00:13:46,094
which is one of the other technologies
in which you pioneered

305
00:13:46,295 --> 00:13:48,358
In 1954, I invented it.

306
00:13:48,728 --> 00:13:50,252
Or using

307
00:13:50,406 --> 00:13:53,766
a number of different molecules which
 can be used for this purpose

308
00:13:53,861 --> 00:13:56,096
or mystical disciplines

309
00:13:56,215 --> 00:13:58,215
when one enters into these realities

310
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,915
each set of instructions carries
with it usually a belief system.

311
00:14:02,959 --> 00:14:03,932
Right.

312
00:14:05,179 --> 00:14:08,250
Basically what you're saying is that
 all of these belief systems are wrong

313
00:14:08,319 --> 00:14:11,663
but one needs to entertain or
to hold the belief system

314
00:14:11,755 --> 00:14:14,137
in order to follow through 
the instructions.

315
00:14:14,189 --> 00:14:14,923
That's right.

316
00:14:15,134 --> 00:14:17,533
Our brains are so small
we have to do this.

317
00:14:18,502 --> 00:14:21,821
So the belief system
itself becomes a tool

318
00:14:21,931 --> 00:14:24,893
that we work with, and then 
eventually we have to let go of.

319
00:14:25,003 --> 00:14:25,810
Right.

320
00:14:26,771 --> 00:14:29,787
And using these belief systems, 
you've been able to

321
00:14:29,958 --> 00:14:32,489
in effect map out the inner terrain

322
00:14:33,595 --> 00:14:38,963
of inner space in a  manner which
has as rich and varied flora and fauna

323
00:14:39,049 --> 00:14:41,299
and geography as
one would find

324
00:14:41,573 --> 00:14:43,016
on any continent

325
00:14:43,931 --> 00:14:44,830
 perhaps richer.

326
00:14:44,874 --> 00:14:49,413
But if you take the same kinds of trips,
you'll find a different flora and fauna

327
00:14:49,705 --> 00:14:50,885
Each time.

328
00:14:53,466 --> 00:14:55,691
So in the province of the 
mind there aren't any limits.

329
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,253
And yet if one pushes
that very, very far

330
00:15:02,627 --> 00:15:05,259
I guess no limits almost 
means nothing.

331
00:15:05,317 --> 00:15:08,831
 There's nothing there.
Limits is what defines things,

332
00:15:08,957 --> 00:15:10,801
 it's what creates form.

333
00:15:11,946 --> 00:15:14,071
I hadn't thought of it that way.

334
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,088
Well, there are no limits 
that you put on it previously

335
00:15:20,007 --> 00:15:21,561
and new limits may appear

336
00:15:22,604 --> 00:15:25,926
which define it in an entirely
new way,which is much larger.

337
00:15:26,081 --> 00:15:27,104
That's all that means.

338
00:15:27,154 --> 00:15:29,139
I almost have the sense, though, that

339
00:15:29,202 --> 00:15:32,273
if there are no limits in the 
province of the mind that we

340
00:15:32,693 --> 00:15:36,431
humans and other beings 
create limits of our own

341
00:15:36,509 --> 00:15:39,503
to make it interesting, to make 
the game worth playing

342
00:15:39,636 --> 00:15:42,198
Well, you can't live as 
a human without limits

343
00:15:43,058 --> 00:15:44,925
and that's your body.

344
00:15:45,082 --> 00:15:46,462
They're built into your brain.

345
00:15:46,549 --> 00:15:49,034
The pattern recognition system
 is in your brain, for instance.

346
00:15:49,377 --> 00:15:52,623
 If one hallucinates,
 say, on cocaine

347
00:15:52,787 --> 00:15:54,178
one sees a bush

348
00:15:54,455 --> 00:15:58,673
over there as an old lady 
crying with a shawl over her head.

349
00:15:58,861 --> 00:16:00,804
You walk over and it's a bush.

350
00:16:00,999 --> 00:16:04,667
Now if somebody else is on cocaine 
and they look at that same bush

351
00:16:04,797 --> 00:16:07,031
they'll see the old lady crying.

352
00:16:07,332 --> 00:16:10,285
 So this apparently is pattern

353
00:16:10,514 --> 00:16:12,983
recognition systems that are 
built into our brains

354
00:16:13,192 --> 00:16:15,926
and are given at birth probably.

355
00:16:16,349 --> 00:16:19,739
In other words, in certain 
altered states of consciousness

356
00:16:20,784 --> 00:16:23,315
there is an ability, I suppose,
to be telepathic

357
00:16:23,370 --> 00:16:26,401
to  cognize the thoughts 
directly of another person.

358
00:16:27,221 --> 00:16:29,502
I think it's more than that.

359
00:16:29,942 --> 00:16:32,149
It's a particularly noisy 
pattern of the bush

360
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,716
in striking your brain,
is reorganized

361
00:16:36,355 --> 00:16:38,527
personified by the brain.

362
00:16:39,833 --> 00:16:41,545
All brains do the same thing

363
00:16:41,740 --> 00:16:43,057
even if you're not in

364
00:16:43,198 --> 00:16:46,073
telepathic communication.

365
00:16:48,403 --> 00:16:51,388
So you have an  alternate there.
Do you know about alternity?

366
00:16:51,710 --> 00:16:54,811
Alternity, that's a wonderful word. No.

367
00:16:55,422 --> 00:16:57,177
I experienced alternity

368
00:16:57,357 --> 00:17:00,209
very dramatically when
I came back from Chile.

369
00:17:00,417 --> 00:17:03,894
I sat in Elizabeth Campbell's
living room in Los Angeles

370
00:17:04,892 --> 00:17:07,962
in what I call the prophet meditation

371
00:17:08,165 --> 00:17:12,313
sitting on the floor, my spine 
ramrod straight.

372
00:17:12,558 --> 00:17:15,527
Suddenly a line of light comes
down through my spine

373
00:17:17,632 --> 00:17:20,819
and there are leaves of different
realities all around me.

374
00:17:21,234 --> 00:17:22,797
 I can look into the future

375
00:17:23,093 --> 00:17:26,553
and the present is here in each of
those as it goes on out to

376
00:17:26,663 --> 00:17:27,819
many years from now

377
00:17:28,065 --> 00:17:30,143
and goes to infinity upwards.

378
00:17:31,022 --> 00:17:33,647
 There's a tremendous amount of
power going through this.

379
00:17:33,956 --> 00:17:35,743
Well, the next morning I was 
thrown out of bed

380
00:17:35,884 --> 00:17:37,915
 by the Sylmar earthquake

381
00:17:38,297 --> 00:17:39,367
and I thought

382
00:17:39,852 --> 00:17:43,662
"Gee, did I cause that? Or was it caused
by the same energy that went through me?"

383
00:17:43,801 --> 00:17:46,824
And then I realized 
that this was hubris

384
00:17:47,971 --> 00:17:50,416
he whom the gods would 
destroy, he has hubris.

385
00:17:50,477 --> 00:17:51,893
Filled with pride.

386
00:17:53,613 --> 00:17:55,370
And so I lost my pride

387
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,014
and I realized that I couldn't
explain either of them.

388
00:17:58,747 --> 00:18:00,936
Alternity, as you've described it

389
00:18:00,997 --> 00:18:03,993
 then, would seem to be a
space in which you're

390
00:18:04,031 --> 00:18:08,234
 in touch with many alternate
 realities, all simultaneously.

391
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:09,894
Yes, and then you get caught with one

392
00:18:10,702 --> 00:18:11,699
as I did.

393
00:18:12,590 --> 00:18:16,054
It seems very similar in a way to
what physicists are describing

394
00:18:16,121 --> 00:18:19,728
when they talk about the multiple-universe
interpretation of quantum physics.

395
00:18:19,789 --> 00:18:21,531
That's right.

396
00:18:23,234 --> 00:18:25,539
Francis Jeffreys is 
writing my biography

397
00:18:25,964 --> 00:18:28,525
and he describes
alternity from the

398
00:18:29,618 --> 00:18:31,883
wave function of quantum mechanics

399
00:18:32,096 --> 00:18:36,438
and when you collapse it you've
chosen one alternate in future.

400
00:18:37,442 --> 00:18:39,430
You've referred several times now

401
00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:43,030
to the fact that in the province
 of the body there are limits,

402
00:18:43,532 --> 00:18:45,962
and you yourself have
thrown yourself

403
00:18:46,055 --> 00:18:49,876
up against those limits on many
occasions and have written about it.

404
00:18:51,798 --> 00:18:54,235
 In your writing you
seem to be warning

405
00:18:54,464 --> 00:18:56,401
 people maybe not
to do everything

406
00:18:56,668 --> 00:18:57,941
that you've done.

407
00:18:58,014 --> 00:19:00,447
That's right. They don't have to. 
See this hand?

408
00:19:00,531 --> 00:19:03,414
I have to keep it in ointment

409
00:19:03,819 --> 00:19:04,999
because on

410
00:19:05,247 --> 00:19:06,958
11/11/87

411
00:19:08,606 --> 00:19:11,325
I drove my car up a slight bank, 
turned it over, and totaled it.

412
00:19:11,929 --> 00:19:13,969
The battery acid burned this hand,

413
00:19:14,433 --> 00:19:16,014
and these knuckles were broken,

414
00:19:16,108 --> 00:19:16,819
and that's all.

415
00:19:17,303 --> 00:19:19,905
If I'd had my seat belt on I
would have been decapitated.

416
00:19:22,056 --> 00:19:24,157
But ECCO was showing me something

417
00:19:24,901 --> 00:19:29,770
that I wasn't exploring
alternates properly.

418
00:19:30,287 --> 00:19:32,755
I was caught with one.

419
00:19:33,447 --> 00:19:36,056
There's a wonderful section

420
00:19:36,261 --> 00:19:39,794
 in your book The Scientist, in
which you describe a conversation

421
00:19:39,859 --> 00:19:42,576
amongst different beings
in an altered state who are

422
00:19:42,692 --> 00:19:44,724
describing how carefully they worked

423
00:19:44,756 --> 00:19:47,691
 to create all the coincidences so that
you could have an accident

424
00:19:47,754 --> 00:19:48,965
 in which you nearly died

425
00:19:49,192 --> 00:19:52,906
and were resuscitated 
by your wife Toni

426
00:19:53,455 --> 00:19:56,713
who had just learned mouth-to-mouth
resuscitation three days earlier.

427
00:19:56,948 --> 00:19:57,753
Right.

428
00:19:59,353 --> 00:20:01,399
Then the other accident

429
00:20:01,528 --> 00:20:03,133
the one that closed off

430
00:20:03,352 --> 00:20:04,618
Vitamin K for me

431
00:20:05,311 --> 00:20:08,733
where I was on a ten-speed bicycle
going down Decker Canyon Road

432
00:20:08,986 --> 00:20:12,073
and the chain caught

433
00:20:12,341 --> 00:20:15,155
and I hit the road and
nine bones were broken.

434
00:20:15,530 --> 00:20:18,509
But I didn't say in The Scientist
that I was on PCP at the time

435
00:20:18,857 --> 00:20:20,935
forty-two milligrams injected.

436
00:20:21,167 --> 00:20:24,128
So I was out in the hospital for
five days and five nights

437
00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:26,286
and was taken by ECCO

438
00:20:26,515 --> 00:20:29,234
to planets that were being destroyed

439
00:20:29,881 --> 00:20:32,506
 by supernova waves

440
00:20:32,853 --> 00:20:35,314
by atomic  warfare, and so on.

441
00:20:35,663 --> 00:20:36,757
It was incredible.

442
00:20:37,078 --> 00:20:39,078
When I'd try to come back here

443
00:20:39,401 --> 00:20:41,668
 I'd come back and Toni would be
there and I'd grab on

444
00:20:41,707 --> 00:20:43,106
for six or seven hours

445
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,038
then they'd take me back out.
I hadn't finished the lessons.

446
00:20:47,324 --> 00:20:49,324
What do you think the lesson is?

447
00:20:50,649 --> 00:20:52,758
Well, the lesson in that case was

448
00:20:52,869 --> 00:20:56,447
"Look up the dose for 
PCP before you take any."

449
00:20:57,087 --> 00:20:59,134
It's two milligrams,
not forty-two.

450
00:21:01,328 --> 00:21:03,969
And the other lessons,
of course, were that

451
00:21:04,307 --> 00:21:06,753
 I came back and wanted
to put on radiation suits.

452
00:21:08,490 --> 00:21:12,437
This planet is not very stable.
 It can be destroyed at any time.

453
00:21:13,442 --> 00:21:16,762
There's a sense in the way in
which you live your life

454
00:21:16,878 --> 00:21:19,261
right out on the very edge of what

455
00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:21,908
 would be called

456
00:21:21,943 --> 00:21:24,435
not just normalcy,
or the edge of what is

457
00:21:24,509 --> 00:21:27,033
conventionally safe to do, 
but the very edge of what is

458
00:21:27,052 --> 00:21:29,266
physically possible for a
human being to do

459
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,305
Going to the limits of the body.

460
00:21:31,777 --> 00:21:35,777
And in so doing well,
of course you've discovered

461
00:21:36,449 --> 00:21:39,722
the Fool in the Tarot deck

462
00:21:39,792 --> 00:21:43,133
you put yourself into
this position of nascent wisdom

463
00:21:43,172 --> 00:21:45,975
in which you're bound
to make mistakes.

464
00:21:46,054 --> 00:21:48,257
One can't explore the
way you have without

465
00:21:48,427 --> 00:21:50,709
making mistakes, and 
yet those very mistakes

466
00:21:50,929 --> 00:21:52,859
seem to propel you even deeper.

467
00:21:53,141 --> 00:21:55,839
I have a saying, "There are no 
mistakes, there are only

468
00:21:56,051 --> 00:21:56,918
correctable errors.

469
00:21:57,005 --> 00:22:00,076
There are no errors, there are 
only alternate programs."

470
00:22:00,767 --> 00:22:02,846
They just get the guilt.

471
00:22:04,372 --> 00:22:06,130
There is a sense in which

472
00:22:06,313 --> 00:22:09,966
you have lived your life
on the internal reality

473
00:22:10,019 --> 00:22:12,160
that I almost feel like

474
00:22:12,242 --> 00:22:15,796
your being with me 
here in a TV studio is like

475
00:22:15,857 --> 00:22:17,943
you've come up for air a little bit

476
00:22:18,152 --> 00:22:21,168
to breathe together with us, and
to share what it's  like

477
00:22:21,575 --> 00:22:25,551
in these vast, vast realms,
 light years away

478
00:22:25,726 --> 00:22:28,374
from planetside reality.

479
00:22:28,462 --> 00:22:30,516
I call that in-sanity

480
00:22:30,664 --> 00:22:32,875
and when we're talking
together we're in out-sanity.

481
00:22:33,638 --> 00:22:36,739
And you should never try to
express all of your in-sanity

482
00:22:36,847 --> 00:22:39,262
in the out-sanity, or they'll lock you up.

483
00:22:41,145 --> 00:22:44,096
But in a way you've 
expressed more of your in-sanity

484
00:22:44,177 --> 00:22:46,952
 than most people would ever dare to.

485
00:22:47,617 --> 00:22:51,933
Well, a lot of people take my books as

486
00:22:52,262 --> 00:22:53,262
permission

487
00:22:53,789 --> 00:22:55,524
to go further with that.

488
00:22:55,957 --> 00:22:59,073
One would almost think an
entire generation

489
00:22:59,105 --> 00:23:01,273
perhaps several generations of people

490
00:23:01,401 --> 00:23:03,135
now feel much freer

491
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:06,003
to describe their own inner experiences

492
00:23:06,097 --> 00:23:10,843
 because of people like you doing it
 at a time when it was much riskier.

493
00:23:11,047 --> 00:23:13,704
I'm always surprised at
how many people

494
00:23:14,155 --> 00:23:16,452
have read my books and
been influenced by them.

495
00:23:17,098 --> 00:23:20,457
Well, I can certainly say that
that's the case for me.

496
00:23:20,624 --> 00:23:23,460
I think you'll like the new
edition of The Scientist. It has

497
00:23:23,858 --> 00:23:25,583
all the things I left out of the first one,

498
00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:27,109
seventy-five new pages in it

499
00:23:28,942 --> 00:23:30,981
and fifty new photographs.

500
00:23:31,392 --> 00:23:34,517
And I admit that it was
Ketamine, not Vitamin K.

501
00:23:35,512 --> 00:23:37,788
But you're not using 
Ketamine currently.

502
00:23:37,854 --> 00:23:38,659
No.

503
00:23:39,393 --> 00:23:41,369
I don't like it anymore.

504
00:23:42,237 --> 00:23:45,659
Are you still doing work
in sensory isolation?

505
00:23:45,884 --> 00:23:47,345
Once in a while.

506
00:23:47,576 --> 00:23:49,606
But I never talk about what
I'm doing currently.

507
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:53,730
Remember Human Biocomputer?

508
00:23:54,002 --> 00:23:57,543
I was doing that work with
LSD in the tank in St. Thomas

509
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,924
and the National 
Institute of Mental Health,

510
00:24:00,002 --> 00:24:01,401
from which I was on a fellowship

511
00:24:01,571 --> 00:24:03,277
thought I was just working with dolphins.

512
00:24:03,668 --> 00:24:05,715
So when I sent them Human Biocomputer

513
00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:07,614
as the report for five 
years of the fellowship

514
00:24:07,899 --> 00:24:10,368
they wrote back, "We didn't
realize we were going to get a

515
00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:13,783
monograph from this work."
I don't think they read it.

516
00:24:13,922 --> 00:24:16,454
And they cut off your funding
shortly thereafter, didn't they?

517
00:24:16,874 --> 00:24:18,406
Yes. Somebody

518
00:24:18,530 --> 00:24:19,273
told

519
00:24:19,370 --> 00:24:23,599
the people supporting the dolphin 
that I had brain damage from LSD.

520
00:24:23,982 --> 00:24:26,599
Well, I got that rumor

521
00:24:26,762 --> 00:24:29,220
so I took it to the head of
the head of the

522
00:24:29,705 --> 00:24:32,252
Mental Health Council

523
00:24:32,545 --> 00:24:33,982
that was supporting the work.

524
00:24:34,268 --> 00:24:36,956
He was the head of the
Neurological Institute in New York

525
00:24:37,534 --> 00:24:41,426
and he got angry when they said that,
so he spent three days examining me.

526
00:24:41,859 --> 00:24:43,546
I never had such a
thorough examination.

527
00:24:43,736 --> 00:24:46,781
He got angrier and angrier. He said,
"Absolutely no evidence."

528
00:24:47,195 --> 00:24:51,360
He said, "Do you want any more research 
money?"  I said, "No, I've quit that."

529
00:24:51,588 --> 00:24:53,947
So he said, "All right, I'm going 
to fire two people

530
00:24:54,213 --> 00:24:57,990
 one in the Institute and one
 on my committee."

531
00:24:58,179 --> 00:24:59,086
So he did.

532
00:24:59,665 --> 00:25:02,821
Well, I suppose for our culture the really

533
00:25:02,923 --> 00:25:05,282
special thing about you
is the fact that you

534
00:25:05,409 --> 00:25:08,589
really have a foot in
both worlds, the scientific camp

535
00:25:08,641 --> 00:25:10,305
 and the mystical camp.

536
00:25:10,558 --> 00:25:13,331
And in a way you seem dissatisfied

537
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,878
with both of them. Neither camp seems
 to provide an adequate enough model

538
00:25:17,906 --> 00:25:19,500
 of reality for you.

539
00:25:19,572 --> 00:25:21,424
That's right. My own beliefs
are unbelievable.

540
00:25:23,446 --> 00:25:25,323
And you seem to be saying

541
00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:27,781
that it's up to each person to

542
00:25:27,895 --> 00:25:30,512
in effect make the same
bridge that you have

543
00:25:30,624 --> 00:25:32,944
and to create their own 
belief system, so that

544
00:25:33,027 --> 00:25:35,261
t in creating that belief they can move

545
00:25:35,482 --> 00:25:38,435
into the state that that belief
leads them to

546
00:25:38,499 --> 00:25:40,163
so that they can then discard it again.

547
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,827
That's the gnostic point of view

548
00:25:43,113 --> 00:25:46,355
self transcendence, not
transcendence through a church

549
00:25:46,582 --> 00:25:47,746
or a group.

550
00:25:48,506 --> 00:25:52,147
Back fifteen years ago or so,
you were exploring the

551
00:25:52,457 --> 00:25:54,816
mystical states, as described

552
00:25:54,871 --> 00:25:57,191
 classically as the
various levels of samadhi

553
00:25:57,262 --> 00:26:00,879
 in your work with Oscar Ichazo
 in Chile, in the Arica school.

554
00:26:02,557 --> 00:26:05,628
You had achieved, as we have 
described earlier, some of the very

555
00:26:05,957 --> 00:26:09,113
some of the very highest states
of those mystical traditions

556
00:26:09,168 --> 00:26:13,767
and you wrote about them from 
your own personal experience.

557
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:19,867
People in the mystical traditions
view these states as

558
00:26:20,177 --> 00:26:23,826
being ultimate states. I get the sense 
that you don't think of them that way.

559
00:26:23,878 --> 00:26:27,396
You think of them more the way a
scientist would look at tools.

560
00:26:28,366 --> 00:26:30,734
Well, Patanjali, for instance, in 400 B.C.

561
00:26:31,315 --> 00:26:32,056
said

562
00:26:32,604 --> 00:26:34,846
"When you reach the 
highest form of samadhi

563
00:26:35,871 --> 00:26:38,754
you realize there are
hundreds more beyond that."

564
00:26:39,382 --> 00:26:41,132
I agree; there's no limit.

565
00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:44,573
Well, John Lilly

566
00:26:44,985 --> 00:26:47,000
 it's been a pleasure having you with me.

567
00:26:47,305 --> 00:26:48,272
 Thank you very much.

568
00:26:48,327 --> 00:26:49,202
Thank you.

569
00:26:49,671 --> 00:26:50,757
It's  a pleasure being here.

570
00:26:51,381 --> 00:26:53,983
You sure do know how to ask
the right questions.

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